I have recently become entrenched in a discussion regarding concealing handguns on Missouri State University's campus. My debater is a man who knows his guns, so I should have quite the discussion on my hands. Stay tuned, and I'll update this post whenever I receive a response.
I've placed our texts in green and blue. I figured something like red and blue would be too biased, and I want to try to differentiate our words easily. If anyone has any better suggestions on formatting, let me know.
Without further ado, here's Frank:
I have recently read your article about conceal and carry on Missouri State campus. I also viewed your discussion with the Brother Jed type person outside the library. It is hard for me to put up with a lot of religious intolerance from either those who don’t believe or those who believe too much. There is a balance to be had. I have not however messaged you to talk about religion. There is no sence arguing about such a heated and irrelavent subject.
The article you and your associate wrote seemed to be missing evidence and supporting facts. Missouri has a very stringent application and education process on firearms for a conceal and carry recipient. I do understand your view point that people who have no criminal record but plan on illegally using this right can do so. Those who wish to do such a thing don’t need to go through the application process, $220.00 processing fee, training class, and NICS (federal background check) to carry a weapon. People who want to do illegal things just carry illegally.
The young man who went on a rampage at Virginia Tech did purchase most if not all his firearm equipment legally. This was due to a lack of a criminal background not a failure to find one. If anything knowing that this could happen seems to reinforce the need for those qualified to carry a concealed weapon if they so choose. If someone chooses not to carry that’s ok too. I just think it should be a possibility. The Missouri State security are little more than parking attendants. They cannot carry a firearm or defend anyone in an emergency situation such as that of Virginia Tech.
Your statement about concealed guns on campus restricting the free flow of ideas also fails to make a good argument against the carry law. In order to carry in Missouri you must be 23 years of age. This generally keeps people in their first years at college who have less than great judgment from carrying a firearm. Not to mention in order to buy a pistol you must be 21 and a resident of this state.
I work as a range officer on a firing range in Springfield, and I also shoot for the Missouri State Pistol Team. I know all the Missouri laws surrounding the buying, carrying and shooting of any type of firearm. I also view CCW classes often, as the range where I work regularly hosts them. They involve several tests from knowing the Castle Law doctrine to accurately shooting and handling the firearms. Many people fail and even if they don’t fail the police department reserves the right to fail a person pending a stringent background check for both federal and local crimes not to mention those mentally unfit to carry.
http://learntocarry.com/docs/CastleDoctrine.html This web site shows the doctrine and its intended use. I hope you take a look and see why we all feel so strong about this right. Those of us who carry or will carry aren’t violent people we just want to have the option to protect ourselves against violent threats. We don’t live in fear and we don’t want to hurt people, but we do know there are people who want to hurt others and they are our concern. I also understand that there are people that support our cause that I don't even want to be associated with. This is unfortunate, but I hope you don't use the minority of these racially insensitive over zealous people to judge us all. We are not all like that. I know you have the same problem with those people who support your cause that don't really have your ideals at heart.
Don’t let criminals swing the balance of justice. Bad people will always get guns we just want to tip the balance back into the law abiding citizens’ hands. You of all people should support such a right due to the fact you share one of our most precious of rights attained by the use of force that of free speech. Thank you for your time and I await your reply.
Frank
I've placed our texts in green and blue. I figured something like red and blue would be too biased, and I want to try to differentiate our words easily. If anyone has any better suggestions on formatting, let me know.
Without further ado, here's Frank:
I have recently read your article about conceal and carry on Missouri State campus. I also viewed your discussion with the Brother Jed type person outside the library. It is hard for me to put up with a lot of religious intolerance from either those who don’t believe or those who believe too much. There is a balance to be had. I have not however messaged you to talk about religion. There is no sence arguing about such a heated and irrelavent subject.
The article you and your associate wrote seemed to be missing evidence and supporting facts. Missouri has a very stringent application and education process on firearms for a conceal and carry recipient. I do understand your view point that people who have no criminal record but plan on illegally using this right can do so. Those who wish to do such a thing don’t need to go through the application process, $220.00 processing fee, training class, and NICS (federal background check) to carry a weapon. People who want to do illegal things just carry illegally.
The young man who went on a rampage at Virginia Tech did purchase most if not all his firearm equipment legally. This was due to a lack of a criminal background not a failure to find one. If anything knowing that this could happen seems to reinforce the need for those qualified to carry a concealed weapon if they so choose. If someone chooses not to carry that’s ok too. I just think it should be a possibility. The Missouri State security are little more than parking attendants. They cannot carry a firearm or defend anyone in an emergency situation such as that of Virginia Tech.
Your statement about concealed guns on campus restricting the free flow of ideas also fails to make a good argument against the carry law. In order to carry in Missouri you must be 23 years of age. This generally keeps people in their first years at college who have less than great judgment from carrying a firearm. Not to mention in order to buy a pistol you must be 21 and a resident of this state.
I work as a range officer on a firing range in Springfield, and I also shoot for the Missouri State Pistol Team. I know all the Missouri laws surrounding the buying, carrying and shooting of any type of firearm. I also view CCW classes often, as the range where I work regularly hosts them. They involve several tests from knowing the Castle Law doctrine to accurately shooting and handling the firearms. Many people fail and even if they don’t fail the police department reserves the right to fail a person pending a stringent background check for both federal and local crimes not to mention those mentally unfit to carry.
http://learntocarry.com/do
Don’t let criminals swing the balance of justice. Bad people will always get guns we just want to tip the balance back into the law abiding citizens’ hands. You of all people should support such a right due to the fact you share one of our most precious of rights attained by the use of force that of free speech. Thank you for your time and I await your reply.
Frank
I understand the want of better regulations for CCW. That is a step that many gun advocates agree on. We do end up having one problem with the regulation aspect of the government. The more regulations occur the easier it is to document who has what type of firearm there by making it easier for them to be taken away. This same issue has started in a similar fashion in many other countries including Britain, Australia, and now Canada is very close to having firearms removed. The main point being that regulation is the first step to having guns disappear.
I know this has little to do with CCW but I’m going to connect the two I promise. CCW is regulated fairly well throughout the country in the states that have it. The problems stem not from the federal NICS background check but from the local department check. These departments are supposed to go through and have any documented case of violence down to petty theft staked out in the files of people who aren’t supposed to carry. Problems occur however when friends do other friends favors or police do shoddy jobs on the background checks. You can guess how often a pencil pusher officer screws up. This is how the licenses hit the streets legally that aren’t supposed to be there. No matter what happens with regulation there will always be accident due to the fact that no government organization is flawless.
As far as mental fitness that is another story. I see people with firearms everyday that have absolutely no business having them. Working as a range officer I’ve seen every type of poor and dangerous handlings with firearms I can imagine. I’ve even had someone who was mentally deficient come in with a 45 Smith and Wesson M&P. This however brings doctor patient confidentiality into play, which is unfortunate for people like me who have to defend my right to carry everywhere I go. As you said you have people yell that they want to kill you when you and your organization are doing what you do best. Those people that are yelling at you are the people that are a little off balance and tend to take my side of the story. I don’t want them to take my side of the story because they are idiots. You see I don’t want them to have guns any more than you do, but when you start denying more and more people the right to own or carry then you end up tipping balances and causing riots.
The point is that when you allow everyone who hasn’t gone to jail carry a weapon the playing field is level. In actuality more people stay in line when CCW laws are in effect because they don’t know who might be carrying a weapon. Criminals even act a little more sheepish. We know they are going to have guns no matter what, but when laws allow others to have guns they have to think a little more about their targets. The little old lady walking home from the store may not be so easy a target after all. The reason for CCW is to make your self a hard target. Criminals are everywhere and they thrive on easy targets because they themselves are cowards.
I do like your idea about giving guards on campus guns. I was going to say campus security now is nothing more than glorified parking attendants. Keep in mind though police officers much less security guards only fire their weapons once maybe twice a year when they have to qualify for their job. That’s right most police officers are terrible marksmen. I have fun taking them into the range and out shooting them. This is another main reason why I would rather have my own weapon to protect myself because I know that I have the ability with the firearm to use it correctly.
I have seen everything on campus from you Spaghetti guys to old Jed and I know that everyone is a little crazy. I for one am a conspiracy theorist. Many of which you might find not so far from being true. Many very liberal portions of the government are doing everything they can to have all ammunition bar coded or creating gun powder that expires after three years. These are things that stem from more regulations. In my mind we are never to far from a “Red Dawn” situation.
If we could have a properly trained person in every building on campus that could neutralize a threat I would feel safer, but that as we can tell from our money stupid school is not fiscally sound. A few students getting killed would only fuel government funding to improve security so why improve it now when they can get paid to do it after. I just think that you, myself, and every other law abiding citizen should carry some kind of firearm on their person at all times provided that they are of age and not a felon. Look at Sweden everyone there has a fully automatic weapon and that seems to be the happiest place on earth.
I know people are going to have CCW that shouldn’t and I know not everyone with a gun should have one but that makes it even more important for those of us that can have them to have them. I am glad that we can agree on the fact that our campus is not even close to being secure. I think that is a step forward in this debate.
My Proposition
1) Going through a training course and law study session about CCW laws. (already exists)
2) Making sure all applicants have no mental defects. (hard, but needs to be done)
3) The federal and local background check preformed correctly putting the officer in charge of check legally responsible for any misdeed done by the new CCW holder. (that will get the desk jockeys in line)
4) Once these criteria are met those then legally allowed to carry can do so anywhere they deem fit.
This is my proposal. Fairly similar I know. In fact it’s a little more stringent, but in the end I still think those passing the credentials should still be allowed to carry anywhere.
Your Take
Frank,
Once again, sorry about the absence.
We're obviously in agreement regarding a lot of things. Specifically, our views on the right to keep guns, and our views about some of the people who want to walk around with guns: that they are idiots. Our main difference of opinion seems to be whether or not people should be allowed to carry their guns around all the time.
First, I'm going to address the slippery slope argument that you've presented. You say that once you start regulating guns, they'll start getting banned and restricted.
This same argument can be applied to anyone. I could just as easily say that if you restrict alcohol, soon you'll end up with prohibition. Obviously this is not the case. Or that if you let homosexuals marry, next you'll have babies marrying common household appliances. These are obviously ridiculous assertions.
I believe that if you're seeing trends favoring regulation and then illegalization in other countries, it has more to do with a general consensus shifting towards regulation than it does legal precedent.
Fortunately, we don't have to argue about that, because I'm on your side regarding the regulation of guns. I don't want anyone (not the government, not you, and not anyone else I don't expressly inform) to know whether or not I have guns, ammunition, grenades, or anything else. I believe that there's a historical precedent favoring populations that are heavily armed when it comes to occupation (see Iraq). Now, I'm not saying that there's GONNA be a revolution, an occupation, or anything of the sort in my lifetime. But you can't blame a guy for wanting to be ready just in case.
See, the only problem is, I don't want people to shoot me. This isn't a problem if people are keeping their guns under lock and key in their homes. I'm probably not going to come over for dinner if I don't trust you not to shoot me. And I certainly wouldn't blame you for shooting me if I was takin' your stuff at night. I don't rob people, so it's not really a concern. So there doesn't seem to be any reason that I wouldn't want you to have guns. However, I do go around campus pissing people off (who sometimes think that they have God on their side, and that he's willing them to kill me). This is a Constitutional right to free speech that I'm invoking, and I don't want that put in danger by some guy with a gun. Right now, I'm not too worried about getting shot, 'cause we're not allowed to have guns on campus, and most of these crazy people are actually pretty law-abiding. However, I wouldn't put it past one of these guys to get pissed off and cap me for God if I said something blasphemous and he was carrying.
My solution to the problem is to limit Concealed Carry to people who are in dangerous situations, and to increase police activity and accountability. Further, I think we should let security guards on campus get trained and keep weapons in their cars, just in case.
I completely agree with the increases in regulation that you want to attach to the Concealed Carry permit. I only fear that allowing everyday people access to weapons in public places is asking for trouble, and arming even more people is not a particularly enlightened solution. You can test for severe mental instability, but it's much more difficult to test for a hot, and deadly, temper.
-Ryan
2 comments:
'Protecting the populace!....protecting the populace!'
Good lord, if I read that phrase one more time I will bitch slap someone.
Anyhow...Officer John McClane didn't need a firearm to 'protect the populace' and he has saved entire cities FOUR times! YEAH!
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