Showing posts with label Reason. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Reason. Show all posts

Sunday, June 8, 2008

Refutation of Christian Talking Points

This will be an ever-growing document. If you have an argument or an answer you wish to contribute, please either comment or e-mail me at john454@missouristate.edu.

1. "You can't prove god doesn't exist."

This is true. However, I cannot prove that leprechauns do not exist either. We both acknowledge that the absence of any evidence is completely predictive of non-existence in the case of leprechauns. Indeed, if something didn't exist, what more evidence could you have than the lack of any evidence for its existence?

The fact that I cannot prove god exists by no means indicates that you have a good reason to believe he exists. This argument is bested completely by Bertrand Russell's famous teapot argument:
If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.
For those making claims in any other discipline, they are immediately compelled to provide their reasons for believing as they do - and their reasons (or lack thereof) would be the ultimate indicator of how likely their beliefs are to be true. If somebody believes the moon landing was a hoax, they will immediately begin spouting off their (bad) reasons. Even those people would never be tempted for a moment to say they believe the moon landing was a hoax, despite all the evidence that it happened, simply because they have faith that the moon landing never happened. Furthermore, if they did decide to use such terrible arguments, they would be immediately and rightly dismissed.

We should do the same with people evincing these arguments in defense of what they "know" about god.

2. Kalam Cosmological argument (everything that exists needs a creator).

People using this argument already believe in a god that exists without a creator. So, as long as they believe that something can exist without a creator, it doesn't necessarily follow that whatever exists without a creator has a mind or a conscience. In fact, we already have matter and the laws of physics, which means that adding the additional variable of god violates Occam's Razor and favors a universe that has always existed.

3. Teleological argument or "argument from design" (look around you, you think all this just happened?).

In 1802, William Paley authored an argument in his book Natural Theology that would come to be used by Christians and other religious people up to this day; the watchmaker analogy:
In crossing a heath, suppose I pitched my foot against a stone, and were asked how the stone came to be there; I might possibly answer, that, for anything I knew to the contrary, it had lain there forever: nor would it perhaps be very easy to show the absurdity of this answer. But suppose I had found a watch upon the ground, and it should be inquired how the watch happened to be in that place; I should hardly think of the answer I had before given, that for anything I knew, the watch might have always been there.
Better than I ever could, Richard Dawkins has eviscerated this argument in his book The Blind Watchmaker.

The idea of the watchmaker argument is that order is resultant of a designer. This argument falls flat on its face when you realize that nature produces extremely complex order on its own. The solar system in which we now live is the product of matter - that's it. Matter bends space time and produces the effect we call gravity, which forms big enough chunks of matter into round objects called planets, moons, or stars. It also causes those objects to orbit larger objects. If you have enough matter, a highly ordered system like ours is the inevitable result, with no appeal to god being required. The physical properties of matter, and nothing more, take care of all of it.

So what religious people invoking the argument from design will do, assuming they care enough to modify a defeated argument rather than falling back on faith, is to say that order that stands out from the order around it requires a designer. Of course, they have no reason to believe this, but some will try it anyway. What they do not realize is that the argument does not make any allowance for order created by nature - it claims that natural order was created by god, which we know it is not.

4. Religion serves a useful purpose (it's comforting, makes people better, etc). In this, I'll also tackle "My faith doesn't hurt anybody" and "Atheism makes people do bad things too!"

It should first be noted that this is not an argument supporting the truth of a religious claim. Even if Christianity were the only stabilizing influence we had, that would only mean that we required the belief - it would have no bearing on whether or not the belief were true. Santa Clause is a stabilizing influence on the behavior of children, but that does not make it even a little true.

However, there is no useful purpose scripture serves that cannot be found within reason. Atheists are moral people. What's more, a non-believer is compassionate out of sheer empathy, rather than a fear of punishment or a lust for reward. On the other hand, consider the implications of the claim that we need belief in god to be moral. Who could possibly say this other than people who would be raping, lying, or stealing pornography without the belief that they will be punished for doing so? In this, it seems atheists are at a higher stage of moral development than people making the argument that morality requires god.

Another version of this claim is that belief in god gives people hope. Of course, this does not make it true - in fact, consider how other people invoking this argument would sound. What if somebody told you that they believed that faeries will one day emerge from their garden and give them eternal life, if only they enrich the soil by burying a $20 bill every week? This belief would offer a tremendous amount of hope, but who else but an idiot or an insane person would actually believe it on those grounds? In our hypothetical gardner's case, they're only losing $20 a week, but similarly crazy beliefs in scripture come with more significant behavior resulting of the necessary divorce from common sense these religions require. As Sam Harris puts it:
There are, at this very moment, perfectly ordinary Shia and Sunni Muslims drilling holes into each other's brains with power tools in the suburbs of Baghdad. What are the chances they would be doing this without the "benefit" of their incompatible religious identities?
It is at this time that a believer may be tempted to say that atheism also makes people bad, such as Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot (it should be noted that Hitler was a Roman Catholic, but religious people will still include his name in this list). While we should be eager to admit that some bad people do reject the idea of god, one can only wonder how this actually was responsible for their evil. For instance, Hitler and Stalin both had mustaches - how do we know it was not their mustaches that turned them into monsters? All three of these men rejected the existence of Zeus, could this have been the fount from which their malice poured? What about unicorns? I'm sure they all deny the existence of such mythical beasts. In the cases of Stalin and Pol Pot, was their disbelief that Jesus truly rose from the dead really the mother of their wickedness? It seems clear that their deeds were resultant of bad reasoning rather than skepticism.

To be an atheist, one must only believe that there is no god. That's it. There are no doctrinal beliefs or prescribed behaviors associated with the word. The behavior of atheists is bound by what is reasonable and, since many people are unreasonable, there are some unreasonable atheists in the world. That is the primary problem with faith: how much it encourages unreason. In fact faith, being the defense for a belief when one has no tangible explanation for why they believe it, is fully dependent on abandoning good reasoning. Any sensible man condemns irrationality whether it comes from non-believers like Stalin and Pol Pot or believers like Hitler and George W. Bush - irrationality is bad no matter who embraces it.

So the best you could do with trying to tie people like Stalin to atheism is to say that their actions were particularly reasonable and therefore represented the end game of skeptical thinking or incredulity. Clearly, their actions were unreasonable and cruel, and virtually every atheist will join you in in adopting that fact.

5. "Science/reason is just another faith!"

First, this attempts to assert that all beliefs are equally likely to be true, which is clearly ridiculous. While the claims made by science are certainly beliefs, they are beliefs that are supported by observation, reason, and evidence and, therefore, more likely to be true than other beliefs. As an example, consider the "faith" that a dropped stone will fall to the Earth versus the faith that a dropped stone will soar into the stratosphere. One of these beliefs is in-keeping with everything we know, while the other is not. Because of this, any intelligent person must accept the former as being true until other evidence arises to make us think otherwise.

Science works under only one assumption: that the universe obeys a set of rules. If this assumption is true, then we should be able to observe the behavior resultant of these rules, such as the stone falling to the Earth.

But we can do so much more with science! When we observe our stone falling, we notice that it falls more quickly as it approaches the Earth. After making this observation, we can generate equations to explain this phenomenon and use them in the future to predict how objects will fall. Guess what: it works! As a matter of fact, it works so well that our current understanding of gravitation allows us to fire objects with uncanny accuracy to certain points even beyond our solar system. This confirms our assumption and very, very strongly suggests that reality is following a set of rules. Moreover, it indicates that we can deduce them.

Take a moment and just think of a few of the things we have acquired by affirming that the universe follows a set of discernable rules: cars, planes, the mouse on your computer. The monitor you're currently looking at represents our understanding of electromagnetism. Science has given you your cell phone, your mp3 player, plumbing, light bulbs - the list goes on and on.

Now, if your computer breaks, how will you fix it? Will you pray it back into operation? You could try, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that eventually even the Pope would break down and call somebody who understands the rules of the universe operant in making a computer function. All around us is a harmony spun by the fruits of science - we are literally drowning in the proof of its truth. We do not need faith.

These are the kind of demands we make of science - it must make predictions that work, it must explain things. We have been trying to scientifically confirm miracles for hundreds of years now, and have never managed to do so once (though we've exposed an ever-growing number of frauds). We would love to confirm an instance where prayer healed an amputee or where we could observe something distinctly god-like, but it has simply never happened.

So science is not in any way a matter of faith. In all actuality, faith is nothing more than failed science. The claim that a man can walk on water is a claim about physics; the claim that a man rose from the dead is a claim about biology - they are just claims that have never met the scientific requisites of evidence. We would be open to them, but if god exists he has given us more evidence that the universe is obscenely old by human standards than prayer is effective. In fact, Christians revel in believing claims that contradict the rules of the universe, calling these unsupported claims "miracles." It worries me to note that if believing events occurred in which the rules that govern reality were broken, with no good reason for doing so, is thought to be a magnificent glory, then what could possibly convince somebody that Christianity is complete and utter bullshit?

6. "You are just caricaturing faith!"

According to the World Christian Encyclopedia, there are over 34,000 different sects of Christianity in existence. Even if I were trying to caricature Christianity, how could I possibly do it with so many different voices claiming to have a deeper claim to truth than all the others?

I think it's fair to say that almost all Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God and that, at the very least, he rose from the dead. These claims are not more or less accurate depending on the nuances of the people believing it. All Christian sects are equally lacking of any reason to believe their core claims. Moreover, no Christian sect uses a bible that makes sense - which could be a very good reason why there is so much disagreement within the Christian community about what god's will truly is.

This statement also ignores the vast number of people who DO read the bible and take it word for word. Read the exit polls of relevant votes (here are just a few: Link 1, Link2, Link 3, Link 4, Link 5) if you doubt their numbers. So while moderates will cry that extremists are only a handful - a minority that gets all the press; they are apparently a minority that also casts all the votes.

Ultimately though, we should be focused on determining whether or not Christianity is true, and a religious moderate has just as much reason to believe that Jesus is the son of god as the most strident fundamentalist: zero. The only reason it would matter that I was caricaturing faith is when I point out the blatant evil that practitioners of the doctrine enact out of faith, which I cover in point #4. Moreover, if the claims that all Christians subscribe to are false (which all evidence would suggest they are), then what does it matter if I did happen to be wrong about how much damage faith does?

7. "How is my faith your business?"

Because we all have a responsibility to have good reasons for what we believe. Beliefs are the gatekeepers of our actions, and your actions affect those around you. If we do not have good reasons for believing the things we do, our good intentions can become terrifying.

Instances of religious people failing in the epistemological responsibility are everywhere, from parents denying their children medical assistance out of deference to faith to people flying planes into buildings because they believe it is the best thing possible.

We all acknowledge that it is alright to criticize this failure when we criticize peoples views on politics and policy. In every other situation, it is acceptable (even sensible) to criticize people for failing to hold good reasons for their beliefs, as we realize that people vote and act on those beliefs. For some reason, religion has earned a free pass on this that it does not deserve. In fact, because religions tend to encourage us to ignore evidence (they call this "faith"), it seems obvious that religion should be criticized more than other subjects.

Many religious people will say that their personal faith doesn't harm anybody, and most of them are right (although, they still voted based on what god supposedly does or doesn't like). However, while not all religious people are equally dangerous, all religious people equally fail in their responsibility to have good reasons for what they believe, which results in the instances of horror driven by unreason that do so often emerge from the faith community.

There is no reason to believe in things on bad or no evidence. It gets us nothing good that can't be found (easily) in rationality, while it produces the unreason that results in good people often doing bad things.

Coming up:

8. "What about moderates and Christians who are rational in all but their belief in god?"

9. "God exists because I feel him."

10. "We can't be moral without god."

11. "This nation was founded on Christianity."

12. "Without God, life has no meaning/purpose."

13. "God does not exist in our plane of existence."

Tuesday, May 27, 2008

Florida just keeps getting dumber.

As Florida faces extreme drought and wildfires Florida Baptist Convention leaders are calling state churches to pray for rain June 1.

Just imagine for a moment that we instead asked everyone to spend the day:
-Installing gray water irrigation to their flower beds.
-Walking instead of driving.
-Helping someone whos home was damaged by a recent storm.
-Recycling the items they normally trash.
-NOT WATERING THE LAWN.
-Picking up a trash bag of litter near a stream, creek, or beach.
-Donating a few dollars to Red Cross.
-Donating blood.

I have a suspicion that more would be achieved.

Wednesday, May 14, 2008

OUT Campaign Testimonies



"Rather than pick over the carcass of Christianity (or any other traditional faith) looking for a few, uncontaminated morsels of wisdom, why not take a proper seat at the banquet of human understanding in the present? There are already many very refined courses on offer. For those interested in the origins of the universe, there is the real science of cosmology. For those who want to know about the evolution of life on this planet, biology, chemistry and their subspecialties offer real nourishment. (Knowledge in most scientific domains is now doubling about every five years. How fast is it growing in religion?) And if ethics and spirituality are what concern you, there are now scientists making serious efforts to understand these features of our experience-both by studying the brain function of advanced contemplatives and by practicing meditation and other (non-faith-based) spiritual disciplines themselves. Even when it comes to compassion and self-transcendence, there is new wine (slowly) being poured. Why not catch it with a clean glass?" ~ Sam Harris

I was motivated to post this after reading Carly's testimony. If you leave a testimony, let me know if I can repost it. I would like to get a good list of testimonies going on teh blog.

Several polls have revealed that Atheists are amongst society's most deplored and least trusted demographics, with most people unwilling to vote for a qualified atheist on the grounds that said atheist rejects the voting publics' particular fairy tale of choice. About a year ago, Richard Dawkins launched the Out Campaign to counter this.

I believe, as Dawkins does, that the way to combat this is to be heard. Therefore if you do not believe that a god exists, leave your testimony here and whether or not you will allow me to reprint it. If you suspect that Jesus may not have been born of a virgin or that Allah is not the creator of the universe, but have never been that vocal about it, consider making now the time. Being counted as an atheist in an overtly religious nation that statistically abhors us is not easy to do, I understand that. Consider the fact that your testimony will make it easier for the next person to come out, and all the people after them. I know from the e-mails received over the last three years that many people who have grown up being indoctrinated with faith have long since shed their religious ballasts in lieu of seeing the world as it is - not how they or those who wrote their holy books want it to be. There is no liability to this whatsoever, and you should not be ashamed to drink in the beauty of the universe from a clean glass.

We are intelligent people, we are moral people - our only crime is how much more rational about assessing reality we are than our pious counterparts, and it is an indictment we should welcome.

Testimonies

  1. "I'm so atheist that I won't even ball any dudes that talk about supernatural forces controlling our lives."

    ~ Jessica Landis, Chicago IL

  2. "Even as little as six months ago, I used to feel like everyone's religion was their prerogative. How did I have the right to say that I'm right and other people can't have this strange fantasy called God and religion when it makes them feel so good about themselves and their lives? (All ridiculous fanatics excluded.) I didn't think there was any god, but I didn't feel the need to push that on others.

    But then I changed my mind."

    ~ Carly Ann, Springfield MO

    (Read the rest of Carly's testimony on Teh Juggernauts.)

  3. "Most of the activities at church I only attended for social reasons, though. My closest friends went to the church events, so I would go to hang out with them, which I expect is what the majority of Christians do as well. Still, despite this, I'm one of the very few Christians I knew who faithfully had a quiet time daily for years straight. As a result, I think I have a vast knowledge of the Bible, both what is in it and what isn't in it.

    Last year, when I was 18 or 19, if someone held a gun up to my head and asked if I was a Christian, I would have said yes without the slightest hesitation. I believe I would have anyways. I had thought about it often (which, in itself is sad)."

    ~ Kevin Sweet, Springfield MO

    (The rest of Kevin's Testimony can be found here - it's really quite good)

  4. "Of course, once I had started to look critically at what religion has done (both to me, and to society in general), I was infuriated. I grew up feeling like there was something wrong with me for going through puberty normally and wanting to have sex. I felt ashamed of myself my whole adolescence because I was told that having an attraction to someone was a sign of sin. I grew up hating myself because of religion. I trusted an imaginary person to protect me from my abusive stepdad, and actually believed that he helped! I taught myself that what I saw around me was false, and that doctrine was right no matter what. I forced myself to believe lies and discard the truth. I trusted in so much that simply does not hold up…all for the hope of another life so I didn’t have to deal with this one.

    This has been the most important year of my life. I have searched myself and found much. I have found that I have no reason to be ashamed of myself. I have found that there is no fate but what we make. I have found that if I want my life to be better, I need to work towards it, since nobody else will do the work for me. I have learned to be a stronger person. Even though it hurt, I’m proud to say that I’ve discarded superstition."

    ~ Josh Wilson, Springfield MO

    (The rest of Josh's testimony can be read here.)

  5. "What I was reading in the bible appalled me. I may have cast the monstrosity of it aside, saying that god’s ways are inscrutable or something like that; except that it was shortly before I started reading the bible that I also began to read up on Astronomy. The difference between the bible and even the most elementary Astronomy book astounded me. There was no need to explain away seemingly atrocious parts of Astronomical texts – they were written plainly and precisely. They were stuffed with so much information, things that I could not even come close to comprehending as a child, but that they were always willing to explain if I applied myself.

    Conversely, the bible insisted that I could not question. It made a virtue of obeying even the cruelest edicts without pause (see the story of Abraham and Isaac or of Jephtha and his daughter). There was never a case of god ever explaining anything to anybody. It occurred to me that this was why people were always bickering over what god’s will truly was, even in my old church. It was because the bible is a muddled book from which we can draw no precise conclusions the way they could in Astronomy."

    ~ JT Eberhard, Springfield MO

    (The rest of JT's testimony can be read here.)

  6. "Many life events conspired to put me in my place. A main influence was the canceling effect of Eastern Orthodoxy on my Protestantism. I had to abandon a great deal of the shallow things which justified my Protestant viewpoint, and in mid-process noticed I wasn't standing on anything at all. Not only that, but if we are to take what the Church Fathers said seriously all of the sudden there are some very specific things to disagree with on a variety of issues not necessarily elucidated in Scripture. I was better off in Protestant land where I could very easily disagree with everyone and heed my own interpretation. Anyway, Eastern Orthodoxy was clearly a better denomination and also clearly set itself up (to me at least) for a fall. Another factor was a girlfriend at the time whose opinion I respected showed me what a Prot-bot I was. And yet taking the "cult think" seriously led directly to being one. It doesn't say on the Bible, "Humanistic values not included."

    ~ Ben Schuldt, St. Louis MO

    (The rest of Ben's testimony can be read here.)

Thursday, May 8, 2008

Brother Jed's Weekly Mailing

It's all about us!

JED FEST
Missouri State University, April 29, 2008
We had an outstanding day on campus for the "Jed Fest." The sponsors of the charitable event, the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, received contributions of almost $300 for the Heifer Project. We had a steady crowd of up to 100 listening all afternoon. I won the hearts of a lot of students for participating in this event, at least for the day. I even agreed to let them water balloon me, if they could raise $100 for one throw; which they raised within 30 minutes. The students gave me an ovation for that. I did not get too wet. Several students commended me for being a good sport, good humored, etc.
One notable incident was when a girl named Sharon approached me while Bro was preaching. She thanked me for giving her a copy of my autobiography a few weeks ago at Southeast Missouri State where she had been visiting friends. When I first started preaching, I had asked how many in the crowd were following Christ. She was one of about six who raised her hand.
She said my book had already influenced her.
I asked, "How?"
She referred to this paragraph where I write, "Jesus was motivated by love, but He only speaks of God's love for humanity in six verses in the four gospels. In 163 verses He speaks of wrath, Hell, condemnation and judgment."
Soon she had all sorts of thoughtful questions for me. She received my answers without gainsaying. She said that she had read the Bible through twice.
She asked a few times if one could be a Christian and be a lesbian. I finally asked if she was a lesbian. She said yes; but she claimed she had not done anything sexual with her girlfriend, just hugged and kissed. I have heard that a lot in recent years. She told me that her father was a transsexual, who had an operation schedule in a few months. There is so much confusion among the young; they do not know what they are.
I conversed with her for at least 30 minutes. I asked if she would give me her email address so that a local pastor friend of mine could contact her. She agreed. I believe she is a very bright girl with a lot of potential. She needs to be reached before she totally gives herself over to the lust of the flesh.
While I was preaching to the main crowd, Bro or Pat would have a group of students surrounding them. This is always a good sign that the spirit is moving. Bro reported that he had a very low key and profitable conversation with six Christians concerning God̢۪s grace which teaches us to live holy (Titus 2). The students did not argue with him but listened and seemed to be receiving. Pat was pleased that in her sessions she was able to simply read many scriptures to her group.
Christian Student witnesses on the sidelines
Bro Cope Talks with a Student
THE DEVIL INTERVENES
MSU, April 30
We preached in another area on campus today which actually has more traffic. The Spaghetti Monster gang with their signs was out once again; but unlike yesterday they were trying to interfere with our preaching. At one point two boys read obscene poetry beside us at the top of their voices. But between Bro and me, we were able to persevere despite this distraction. At 4:30 PM Bro was preaching to an attentive group of fifty when a girl said, â€Å“The only reason they are here is because we are giving them an audience. Let’s all leave.â€� Bro perceived that this was the devil speaking through this woman.
Bro said later, â€Å“I had them in the cup of my hand. Satan knew it and he was determined that the students were not going to hear his message.â€�
This is a tactic that the devil will sometimes use; it usually does not work. However, virtually all the crowd left as the woman walked away to Bro̢۪s rebukes directed towards her. Since it was late in the afternoon, we decided not to preach again. We did converse with a few students for a while. A psychology major, Max, who is a Christian, thanked us for coming and praised our courage and boldness. He admitted that our ministry has opened all sorts of opportunities for him to witness.
Bro Cope preaches (hat and suspenders in center).
Earlier in the afternoon I had had addressed Max and female psychology major, Amber, and the crowd concerning the psychologies̢۪ failure to make a proper distinction between a causation and an influence. With causation one is bound to have a certain result, with an influence one may or may not have a particular result. Psychologists will usually teach that man is a product of his genes and environment. They fail to recognize a third alternative; that man is a product of his choices. In life we all fall under good and bad influences; and we may have some good and bad genes. However, bad social influences and weak genes can be resisted. Therefore, man is accountable and responsible. Most psychologists do not hold man responsible for his actions.
Last week, I attended a lecture on â€Å“mental illnessâ€� in a church setting. The speakers had two solutions; we must remove the stigma of mental illness and the mentally ill need to stay on their medication.
I asked, â€Å“What could we as Christians do to help these people? After all, when Jesus encountered a man behaving in a bizarre manner, He brought him peace of mind.â€� The answer I got was unsatisfactory in that nothing was offered that any non-Christian could not offer to the â€Å“mentally ill.â€�
I am convinced that most of what we call mental illness is a result of people living selfishly and irresponsible lives. In the past common sense affirmed this in the minds of most men; so there was rightly a stigma associated with this â€Å“disease.â€� There are few mental problems that a good sound conversion experience will not solve. Now I realize that sometimes there are physical causes that may be beyond a person’s capacity to overcome. But even then with the power of Christ amazing transformations can take place.
Regrettably, the Church usually teaches that Adam̢۪s sin caused us to sin; if true, then men should not be accountable or held responsible by a Just God. But the truth is that Adam̢۪s example has influenced us all to sin. Thankfully, we have the good example of the second Adam, our Lord Jesus Christ, to influence us to righteous living. It is our choice, to follow Adam into sin or Christ in righteous. We have in the past all made the wrong choice. But by the grace of God, some of us have made a new choice. We have chosen to follow Jesus. He changes everything!
AN UNBELIEVING HOME SCHOOL FAMILY
Brother Jed talks with the Mother of the Unbelieving Family
MSU, May 1
We moved to another location in front of Strong Hall to preach today. The weather was very windy. Sister Pat started and drew a crowd of about 30. She turned the meeting over to me. One of the students, Kent, who read Alan Ginsburg poetry loudly yesterday to disrupt, once again resorted to this tactic. I decided not to try to preach over him. So I walked away from the crowd. I know and I think that they know that they really do not have a show without me. So I did not care to put up with their tactics at least that early in the afternoon. Meanwhile, several students gathered around me for a good conversation, while the Spaghetti Monster crew continued their crazy tactics. After a while, Bro decided to get into the action. Bro did quite a preach for an hour or so standing fast in the midst of the zany tactics of the Spaghetti people and their noisy interruptions. Late in the afternoon I had a good conversation with Kent, who is an English major. We talked of literature, history, politics and, of course, religion.
Finally, I decided to get back in the action, which had the effect of subduing the students because they really want to hear what I have to say. The leader of the Spaghetti cult, J.T., engaged me in an informal debate over various issues. Eventually, the crowd became stirred again; and I turned the meeting back to Bro since some geological questions had been raised and Bro is very knowledgeable in this field. Bro presented many facts that refuted the wild fantasy of evolution.
Bro Cope
Sister Pat at Jed Fest
For two day I engaged in a lengthy conversations with a 55 year old man named, Mark. He brought out his wife Donna. They have homeschooled their four children. All of their children are involved with Church of the FSM. The oldest girl, Amber, will be working on an advanced degree in psychology next year at the University of Arkansas. Mark is a former drug addict who has successfully gone through the 12 point program. He has a sense of spirituality, but he does not know the Lord. Nevertheless, we had good fellowship together and I liked the whole family despite the blasphemous ways of the children. On the sidelines I had pleasant and in depth conversations with them all.
I stopped preaching about 4:45 since we had a three hour drive back to Columbia. On the way home Sister Pat remarked, â€Å“Students when they gather in a crowd usually have to have beer, loud music, drugs, sex, or have something to entertain them whether it sports or a movie or a band. However, they gather to hear us for hours without any of these things that are generally thought of necessary to have fun or a so-called good time. Yet they will gather for hours to hear us speak against those things which they love so much. This demonstrates the power of God’s Word preached with the power of the Holy Ghost.â€�
Many students have told me over the years, both believers and non-believers that my preaching meetings have been the highlight of their college years. Oh, if the college ministers would consistently preach an uncompromising message against sin, we could have a revival!
Bro Cope and One of the Homeschool Girls
University of Missouri, May 2
Today only Bro and I went to Speakers̢۪ Circle. It rained all morning and the afternoon was windy and partly cloudy. We did not start until 12:45 to give the weather more time to clear. The crowd never was above 25 and it was difficult to hold their attention. We stopped preaching at 3 PM. In Christ, Bro Jed

Wednesday, April 30, 2008

Smacking Around Simpson

Andrew Simpson Foreign Born Patriot is making a fuss over on the forums in The Standard's website again.

He is really getting on my nerves. He managed to insult basically everything I hold dear, in a single comment.

Things Amber Holds Dear:
  • The scientific method. Check.
  • Darwin. Check.
  • Peer-review legitimacy. Check.
  • Evidence. Check.
  • My ability to pick apart his BULLSHIT. Check.
  • My ability to read. Check.
You can see the entire conversation HERE.

I feel pretty confident in my ability to knock him around, but if anyone wants to jump in, I would certainly encourage their participation.

Just to make you all angry, I will include the most recent Simpson Foreign Born comment, and my response.

[ Simpson Foreign Born]

MR JT: Peer reviewed is not what it is cracked up to be. Galileo, and Einstein discovered how hard it is to fight against peers in their day as they discovered things that others didn't want to accept as reality but the test of time has borne them out to be true. Peer review is only done according to what is acceptable. Nowadays if you refute evolution as a scientist, you are scorned, even though you might present EVIDENCE, not theories to your peers, nevertheless you are villified because it goes against the current feeling about the origin of man.
Ms Faegre, if you would have read carefully that scripture that you were misrepresenting then you would have seen that at the beginning of the chapter the description that you were referring to was His disciples asking Him about the destruction of the temple that He was referring to and indeed that happened in their lifetime. Nobody but the Father knows when He will send the Son of Man to collect those who are faithful to Him and whom He knows, not "knows Him".


[My Response]

Mr. Simpson,


You used Einstein as an example of a brilliant mind who had to fight against his peers to have his theories accepted.


Yes, when Einstein's initial theories were proposed, they were questioned. But, with time, the scientific community has come to accept that every shred of evidence points towards his theories holding true, at least in this part of the universe.


Similarly, when Darwin's initial theories were proposed, they were questioned. But, with time, the scientific community has come to accept that every shred of evidence points towards his theories holding true.


It is fair to note that Darwin's theory has actually stood longer then Einstein's. Darwin's theory of evolution was already beginning to receive acceptance from the scientific community at the time of his death, when Einstein was only three years old. For over a hundred years Darwin's theories have remained undefeated.

The idea that the scientific community is ostracizing those who explore their environment with an open mind to options besides evolution is patently false. What may be true however is that scientists are expected to shed their personal biases as much as is humanly possible. You cannot approach a problem looking for an answer that undeniably confirms your preexisting beliefs. That is not science, and therefore it would be ridiculous for the scientific community to accept it without questioning it's validity.

You speak of "evidence" brought forward against evolution. I would be interested in seeing the citations you speak of. I have time in the next few days to read through the articles. I would be very interested to see what sort of evidence refuting evolution has been acquired.

Sadly, the mantra of "we have evidence" is often unsubstantiated by Creationists. Take the film "Expelled" for instance. We sat through the entire film without hearing ANY of the scientific evidence they said was so powerful that it was being excluded from the debate.

-Amber Culbertson-Faegre

P.S. I will look further into the passages when I get home this evening, and have my copy of the bible in front of me.

[Response, Part 2]

Foreign Born Patriot,


Just to be sure that I was appropriately interpreting the text, I went back and reread the entirety of Matthew 24 again. You claim that I am misrepresenting the scripture. In the first portion of the chapter, it says clearly that the destruction of the temple would act as a sign of his coming and the end of time. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" (Matthew 24:3, NIV).

The next bit discusses in detail how we can recognize the coming of Christ. The destruction of the temple is just one way we know that the end has come. Since you question the validity of my interpretation of Matthew 24:34, I feel it is relevant to quote the entire portion of the text which is relevant (Matthew 24:30-35, NIV).

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Are you really trying to interpret Matthew 24:34 as a mention of the destruction of the temple? I would certainly stand by my interpretation this as saying that within the next generation the Christ would appear.

Oh... wait...

How many generations have passed since Christ was around to talk to us about his second coming? At least 80?

Oops.

My point is not to argue the "proper" interpretation of the text. My point is to point out the obvious fallacies which are included.

We argue over which interpretation is correct. What we should be arguing is if the bible holds a single ounce of authority. I believe we have overwhelming evidence to support the complete inaccuracy and fallacy of the bible. Besides the many contradictions, we have literally thousands of scientific studies showing the "whys" of life discussed in the bible are complete mythology.

There is no reason to assume that the bible speaks for the word of god, or that there is even such a being.

Thanks,

-Amber Culbertson-Faegre